Utter Trash--David Thomas

Beyond Ubu

An interview with David Thomas of David Thomas and Two Pale Boys

By Bob Ignizio

l to r: David Thomas, Keith Moline, and Andy Diagram

David Thomas is probably best know for his work as frontman and vocalist for the Cleveland bands Pere Ubu and Rocket From the Tombs. Thomas, who now resides in Europe, has also released a number of albums as a solo artist and in collaboration with other musicians. The most lasting of these collaborations has been with Andy Diagram (trumpets) and Keith Moline (guitars and violin) under the name David Thomas and Two Pale Boys. This trio of musicians has released three albums to date, four if you count ‘Mirror Man’, the first act of a rock opera conducted by Thomas and performed by “The Pale Orchestra”. The most recent effort by Thomas and Two Pale Boys, ’18 Monkeys on a Dead Man’s Chest’, was recently released on Smogveil Records. Thomas describes the music as “avant-garde traditional folk music from the future performed with post-dance technology.” Whatever it is, the album certainly stands out as a unique and challenging work. Thanks to excellent songwriting, however, it is far from inaccessible.

Utter Trash: It's been a pretty busy year for you, what with albums from two of your bands and all three playing shows. Do you plan on taking a break soon, or do like being this busy?
David Thomas: I'm not working now until I do a tour with the 2PBs in France in February so I hope to get a lot of writing done. This year has been about as busy as I want to be.

UT: Your main band (at least in most people's eyes), Pere Ubu, is pretty flexible musically. What do you get out of working with Keith and Andy that you couldn't with Ubu?
DT: Pere Ubu is a rock band. It has a drummer and a conventional line-up. Therefore, it has a certain amount of inertia which requires a certain amount of effort to affect. The 2PBs, being a smaller unit, reacts quicker and changes direction with much less energy. Pere Ubu is like a Hollywood big-budget blockbuster. The 2PBs is one of those black & white foreign films with sub-titles. Pere Ubu is capable of powerful visionary lunges. The 2PBs is capable of subtle and intricate detailing. It is useful as a writer of music to have access to all these facets.

UT: The vibe on '18 Monkeys' makes me think of some kind of futuristic Beatnik club. Is that sort of what you were going for, and are the Beats a big influence on you?
DT: Wow. That's interesting. It's not what I was going for but I'll certainly consider telling other journos that it was!! No, what I was going for as a framework was the atmosphere of one of those 50s dime store trash detective novels, a Jim Thompson sort of thing, which is why the album art looks the way it does. I need to be clear though that a framework is not the same as the "concept" of the album. It's more like a Point of View, a perspective, a specific vantage point from which the action is viewed.

UT: Even on your solo albums from the early eighties, most of the songs are credited as collaborations with other writers. What is it about collaboration that appeals to you?
DT: My own ideas are not good enough. I like to have them tempered by engagement with the real world. That is, in a sense, what collaboration accomplishes.

UT: As I mentioned earlier, you've been on the road a lot this past year. Do you enjoy touring, or is it just a necessary evil to get your music out to the public?
DT: I enjoy playing in front of people. I am at my best in front of people. I sing better. I construct better stories. I create special moments. And the thrill of performance is addicting... taking risks, improvising outcomes, etc. Touring is necessary for that. I enjoy it as long as it doesn't go on too long. In Europe the 2PBs have worked out a methodology whereby we can go off for 4-5 mini-tours on a regular basis. This is ideal for me.

UT: Although you left Cleveland a long time ago, you still come back on tour and often record at Suma Studios. Anything you miss about your old home town? Anything about Cleveland you're especially glad to have left behind?
DT: I don't miss anything. The town I grew up in doesn't exist anymore. It is a ghost town that I visit.

UT: What do you think your next recording project will be? It's been a few years since the last Ubu album, but I know a lot of people are hoping there will be an album of new material from Rocket from the Tombs.
DT: I'm not sure what will happen next. An Ubu album is next in line, but there is discussion about RFTT, as well. The "question" with RFTT is whether or not the current band will be able to write together. We are weighing various options and methodologies right now. RFTT rocks hard but that doesn't mean we can write together.

UT: The last few years a number of the early punk/new wave/alternative/whatever you want to call 'em bands have been inducted into the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. Do you have any desire to see Pere Ubu join their ranks?
DT: No. A rock n roll hall of fame is an abomination. It's an insult. There's no hall of fame for novelists or painters, is there? That's because those are "serious" pursuits. But rock music is pop culture and not worthy of anything but trash affectations.

UT: As a guy who spends a lot of time listening to, thinking about, writing about, and playing music, I'm getting depressed with the way so much of what's coming out lately (even in the underground) is very generic sounding. Why do you think music has largely become so homogenized, and do you think a guy with as unique a voice and idiosyncratic approach to writing such as yours could get a break in today's industry if you were just starting out?
DT: I would hate to be starting out today. It's pointless to speculate, though. Musicians are stupid people generally who will do anything to garner approval. So the music industry leads them down the primrose path with such ease. Every recent technological innovation of the last 20 years has been designed to marginalize musical individuality. So now what's the point of complaining about the anodyne nature of pop music? That's what everyone wants. At least that's what you all agreed to (without knowing it).

UT: After all the years you've been in the music business, are there any goals you still haven't reached as an artist?
DT: Yes... of making a good album.